Then I rationalized: well, those people<\/em> don\u2019t read anyway, and if they did, would never associate my comments with their<\/em> behavior.<\/p>\n Because I am hyper-sensitive to it, and because I write about it often enough, I have been trying to understand it better. I have no illusion that the problem can be solved (certainly not by me), but I am wondering whether it can be avoided in a specific, micro way, perhaps by creating a club where people like me can get the listening experience they desire.<\/p>\n Let\u2019s survey a few forms of the problem (by no means exhaustive):<\/p>\n Some of the problems above are caused by, or exacerbated by particular venues. Sometimes it\u2019s the style of the artist. Sometimes it\u2019s the artist themselves (meaning, they are an opener that some portion of the audience simply doesn\u2019t care to discover<\/em>).<\/p>\n Fine, it\u2019s a fact of life. But, is it understandable\/explainable? Is it consistently the same roots underlying the various forms of rudeness? I think the answers are Yes and No, respectively.<\/p>\n Let\u2019s take the venue out of the equation for a minute (we\u2019ll analyze their role right after). Broadly speaking, there appear to be four categories of rude audience members:<\/p>\n #1<\/a> is often a venue problem (not always), so I\u2019ll deal with it later.<\/p>\n #2<\/a> is one of the toughest things. You can be a real fan of a particular artist and not care about music in general (or other artists\u2019 fans!).<\/p>\n #3 makes you a good person on some level, your friend or an artist you like really needed your support and you bothered to show up, but somewhere, there\u2019s a resentment. You want to ensure that you<\/strong> have a good time, rather than complete your original good deed the way it should be.<\/p>\n #4 this is one of the worst, but more often than I care to admit, it\u2019s other artists<\/strong> (who certainly don\u2019t want it to happen to them!). In their heads, I\u2019ll bet they\u2019re thinking \u201cWell, I\u2019ve heard so-and-so sing that song 2,798 times, and they completely understand why I\u2019m not paying attention\u2026\u201d OK, let\u2019s be honest, they\u2019re really not thinking about their actions at all<\/strong>, I was just trying to be nice.<\/p>\n Continuing with #4, I believe that often these people show up because they know that the rest of their circle of friends (largely other artists) will be there (which is why I said \u201cto be part of the scene\u201d). The problem is that their friends, who might otherwise be quiet, rarely tell them to be quiet. They easily get pulled into the conversation<\/em>, even if they feely badly about it. After all, being rude to someone who is on stage and busy feels more anonymous than telling a friend to be quiet, or step outside to talk.<\/p>\n The following will likely strike you as completely obvious. On some level, it always was to me as well, but recently it has struck me much more clearly. The thing that unites all of the above, explaining the majority of the individual rude behavior, is a Look at Me<\/strong> attitude. The disruptor wants<\/strong> (perhaps even needs<\/strong>) to make themselves the focus, the center of attention.<\/p>\n Some of you might think that\u2019s ridiculous. If so, try to explain the following behavior to me. We\u2019ll assume that a rude person is completely oblivious to the fact that they can be heard, or that anyone cares, because they think no one else is bothering to listen to the music either. Then that person get shushed<\/strong> by 80% of the people in the crowd, successfully<\/strong> (for the sake of argument, since it\u2019s often not<\/strong> successful). 95% of the time, less than one verse later (often less than three words later), that person is talking loudly again.<\/p>\n They no longer have the illusion (or excuse) that no one noticed or cared about their disruption. It\u2019s they<\/strong> (them?) that could care less about their behavior or its affect on others (especially the musicians on stage). Feel free to leave a comment correcting my conclusion.<\/p>\n See the bottom of this long post for a (somewhat sarcastic) proposal to stop this behavior! On to the venues.<\/p>\n Have you ever attended a Broadway show and heard people have loud conversations in the audience during the show? Surely there are some awful shows\/performances that can\u2019t hold some people\u2019s interest. Surely there are some people attending in a group that haven\u2019t seen each other in a while and have much to catch up on and little time to do it. Surely, some of the same people that never stop talking at a music venue attend such shows without opening their mouth on Broadway.<\/p>\n Why? Because it wouldn\u2019t be tolerated<\/strong>. Ushers would warn you (probably only once) and then escort you out. The people around you wouldn\u2019t hesitate to let you know it either, not in a quiet, anonymous shush<\/em> that might occur at a music venue, but in a let\u2019s meet in the alley<\/em> way, indicative of the value they place on quiet in this setting.<\/p>\n You might think it\u2019s a factor of the ticket price. I don\u2019t think so. Students often get in cheaply on Broadway (and they are just the type of young people who chatter non-stop in the bar settings with live music). More importantly, many musical events that are paid shows, including some higher-priced tickets, include a full helping of chatter. The difference is that the venue<\/strong> tolerates it (as do the majority of the annoyed<\/em> patrons).<\/p>\n I believe there are a few factors, but the first is the biggest issue, by far:<\/p>\n #1<\/a> isn\u2019t an easily surmountable problem. People will buy drinks (often because they have to, with drink minimums per set, etc.) and there\u2019s a ton of profit in each drink (necessarily so, to pay the rent, staff, taxes, and leave something left for the owner to eat as well). Once people drink, in an unstructured setting, thing become unpredictable, fast (or in the case of this topic, all too predictable).<\/p>\n It\u2019s hard to blame a venue for not asking people to be quiet, then tossing them if they are repeat offenders. I have way less sympathy for a venue when a show is ticketed. They owe a duty to the other paying customers, to deliver an atmosphere conducive to actually enjoying something you\u2019ve paid for. I get that it will still likely cut into their profits (short-term for sure, possibly long term), but I still think it\u2019s incumbent on them to do it.<\/p>\n #2<\/a>. I urge you to not<\/strong> be forceful with anyone<\/strong> you don\u2019t know well. The possible results of a physical confrontation aren\u2019t worth the potential enjoyment of the music. That\u2019s why you won\u2019t see me getting in anyone\u2019s face in these situations. It\u2019s not worth it, don\u2019t do it!<\/p>\n If a shush won\u2019t get the job done, and the venue won\u2019t do it, let it go (or just write an encyclopedia-sized blog post about it, like I do). #3 feels like it could be solved by educating<\/em> the talkers, but let\u2019s be realistic, it just isn\u2019t going to happen. The same person who wouldn\u2019t talk in Lincoln Center for a string quartet (no words to miss), will happily talk loudly when a single folk singer is quietly strumming a guitar and singing the deepest lyrics you\u2019ve ever heard. Hey, there are still a few of us left that care deeply about lyrics. We may be a dying breed, but we\u2019re proud and we\u2019re loud (no, wait, I guess we\u2019re not really loud<\/em>).<\/p>\n I\u2019ll use #4 to talk about some of our favorite venues, even though many problems exist there as well. I can\u2019t do justice to this topic in this post, as it would be double the already long one this has become. Perhaps some other time, especially if people let me know they have an interest in a \u201cvenues only\u201d post.<\/p>\n Venues have both a physical structure (is there a bar in the listening room, is there a separate room for people to talk in, do they serve food in the listening room, is the room oddly shaped or does it have good and bad viewing spots) and a logical, business model structure (paid or free shows, single or multiple shows, related or random sets).<\/p>\n Rockwood Music Hall<\/a> is one of our favorite places to hang out for a few reasons: many of the people we love play there often; for the most part the small (original) room is relatively quiet, or can be made so through peer pressure; they have a separate room behind the bar so talkers have a place to go if they want and still easily hear the music and return to see it when their chatting is done. Occasionally the talking gets out of hand and can\u2019t be controlled, but the balance is still heavily weighted toward people who want to hear good music.<\/p>\n The biggest problem causing the talking in Rockwood 1 is that shows are always free (or close enough to always). There is a one drink minimum per night<\/strong>, not per set, so it can be a very cheap night out to enjoy (and discover<\/strong>) amazing music. 6pm until at least midnight on weekdays, with weekends starting at 3pm! A tip jar is passed around during each set. You don\u2019t have to put anything in and the suggested donation is $5 per person (per audience member, not person on stage!) per set.<\/p>\n If you stay for multiple sets (as we often do) and are generous in your tipping (as we often are and I only say that to encourage anyone who can afford it to do so as well!), it can become an expensive night, pretty quickly. Meaning, free isn\u2019t even close to being free, if you value music and want to see it continue to be created (and that\u2019s just fine with me!). But, if you can\u2019t afford it (and heaven knows many can\u2019t!), you can sit there and sip one $3 drink all night, letting the tip jar pass you by (there\u2019s something beautiful about that as well).<\/p>\n The fact that there can be a hard rock band on at 7pm, followed by a solo folk singer at 8pm, followed by a 6-piece bluegrass band, etc., makes it difficult for some people to stay quiet, if they don\u2019t like as many genres as we do. This is made worse if they like the bands at 7 and 9, and have nowhere else to go at 8pm. Just hang around and ruin the 8pm band\u2019s fans experience, why not?<\/p>\n So, the amazing people behind Rockwood Music Hall decided that they can do even better. Since the small room is often crowded, and the better known musicians need a bigger room to play, when the place next door became available, they purchased it (or leased it, I have no idea). They built a room that is twice as large, has a cool balcony, a better green room<\/em>, more bathrooms, great sound system.<\/p>\n They did a magnificent job in getting everything they wanted right (and maximized every inch of space in the process). Unfortunately, ask nearly any musician who plays there regularly and they will tell you that it\u2019s one of the rudest rooms you can play (all too often). Part of it is structural. As opposed to the smaller room, Stage 2 (as it\u2019s called) has no separate room to chat in. You could walk 30 feet to the back room at Stage 1, but that feels like going to an entirely different venue, and of course, you can no longer hear the music you ostensibly came to hear.<\/p>\n But, because it\u2019s a larger room, there\u2019s also a strange sense of anonymity and distance from the musician. I bet that people just assume they can\u2019t be heard. Even I want to exchange thoughts with someone every once in a while during a show. I whisper<\/strong> in their ear, not yell louder because the music just got a bit louder.<\/p>\n Bottom line, I think the single biggest problem at Stage 2 is that people often stay for more than one set, even though they are probably only interested in a specific set (before or after the one they end up non-stop talking through).<\/p>\n Joe\u2019s Pub<\/a> used to be our favorite club in NYC. Technically, it still is, though we haven\u2019t been there since March 2nd, 2010, to see Ian Axel<\/a> perform (so it\u2019s hard to defend that as our favorite place<\/em>). The main reason we don\u2019t go there as often as we used to is that Joe\u2019s has a different structural problem.<\/p>\n Every show at Joe\u2019s is a paid show. I like that part a lot. Talkers are rarer there, but it does happen, and when it does, it\u2019s 10x more annoying, because it\u2019s actually unexpected. The problem is that Joe\u2019s books a minimum of two shows a night (often three). They have to clear the audience out after each show, since the next one has separate tickets. That rushes each performer off the stage, even when the audience is totally mesmerized. It feels a bit like a conveyor belt in a factory (keep it moving buddy!). Sets tend to be short\u00a0 (for a paid show, not in comparison to the expected short sets at Rockwood).<\/p>\n It\u2019s hard for fans to connect with the artists after the show (if you like that sort of thing), because you\u2019re clearly annoying the staff that needs to turn around the room for the next act. If you\u2019re waiting outside for the next act, no matter how well you know the drill, it\u2019s maddening that the doors open 10-15 minutes late, often just minutes before the show is scheduled to start. Let\u2019s not forget it\u2019s going to be a short show anyway, so every second counts. Also, Joe\u2019s has great food, which you are now guaranteed to have to eat while the performance is taking place.<\/p>\n Does anyone get this right? BB King<\/a> in Times Square gets close. They typically book a single show per night. It\u2019s always paid. The doors open two hours before the show to accommodate a dinner crowd which can be finished and bussed before the performer hits the stage. By coming for dinner you are rewarded with better seats, as it\u2019s first-come first-seated. Rarely is there talking during the show (except when rowdy fans scream to<\/strong> the performers on stage). The only downside (only in comparison with places like Rockwood) is that tickets are generally expensive, and the indie artists we love won\u2019t get invited there (and might not be able to fill the very large room if they were).<\/p>\n Highline Ballroom<\/a> is owned by the same people who own BB King (they also own the Blue Note<\/a>). It can be great too (like BB King) but it\u2019s not as consistent. Some shows are seated (and offer a similar experience to BB King), but many shows are standing only (which aren\u2019t our favorite, though we\u2019ve reluctantly attended more than our fair share recently because we won\u2019t miss certain artists if we can help it). The biggest difference is that often people at Highline do<\/strong> talk during shows, seated ones as well. That just doesn\u2019t happen at BB King.<\/p>\n What makes the difference between BB King and Highline, which are otherwise reasonably similar? First, they do sometimes book different types of acts. Specifically, Highline will<\/strong> book many of the NYC-based indie artists if they feel they are breaking out enough to get a good crowd (they often do!). Ironically, those shows end up attracting the talkers because it\u2019s more about participating in the scene than listening to the person you\u2019ve seen 100 times, or are best friends<\/em> with\u2026<\/p>\n The other difference rolls me into point #5 above. A large part of BB King\u2019s audience is made up of tourists<\/strong>. Times Square is popular, many of the acts they book are well known, it\u2019s a natural spot for a tourist to take in live music in NYC. If a tourist wanted to go chat in a bar, they wouldn\u2019t go to BB King.<\/p>\n #5 is broader than that. In NYC, you can throw a pebble (please don\u2019t) and hit a dozen bars or clubs nearly anywhere you stand. Why wander in to a live music event to have your drinks and conversation<\/strong>, when you can go into a pub? Well, live music is more fun<\/em>, for sure, and you can tell people you saw so-and-so<\/em>, even though all you did was see<\/em> them, since you weren\u2019t listening. But people often pay for tickets, so they didn\u2019t just wander in<\/em>.<\/p>\n So, I think the density and frequency of shows in NYC desensitizes people to the listening experience (at least some). Go to a city outside of NY (with some noted exceptions) and the experience is radically different. I\u2019ll use one city as an example (since we\u2019ve attended a number of shows there, but it\u2019s by no means unique!).<\/p>\n\n
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